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POLL RESULTS: With Friends Like These...: (48 comments)
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Zonker
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Nov 2009
Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Monday, November 02, 2009 - 12:53 PM (#49923)

Right now, the person I'm most worried about is the male friend.

I've been in an analogous situation. I used to live near a bar. I'm male. I don't sleep with anyone who can't give consent, ever. I worked at a college campus with a position that involved a lot of work with students.

I let a drunk college student pass out on my couch, because she was so drunk she couldn't get her doors unlocked on her car. (I called a cab. She wouldn't wake up when the cab got there. No sex happened, the only undressing I did was taking off her coat and boots.)

She made a rape accusation. The accusation got me put on disciplinary leave...and it being a university, the 'why' of the disciplinary leave went out via the gossip network.

On the date of the court case, I showed up, she didn't, I brought the note I'd left her, and the receipt from the cab company for the cab that came that night. Case was dismissed.

I'd burned through four months of savings (disciplinary leave is unpaid). The disciplinary leave and pending court case meant that my annual contract was not renewed...and the gossip network pretty much meant that nobody would hire me anyway.

Long story made short, I had to move to another state, and remove a six year chunk of my professional history from my resume to be hired in my field again. I have a decade old noncollectable judgment against the false accuser.

So - unless the person who submitted the anecdote really wants to screw over her male 'buddy', this should be filed as 'sex with regrets', not 'rape'. But he's likelier to get messed over by this than she is.


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cwolf20
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Monday, November 02, 2009 - 04:52 PM (#49930)

could be worse. You could've done what a friend did, and made out with the nipples of two openly gay drunks at a party.

He's happily proved since then that he's still attracted to women, and sober


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Murgatroyd
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 01:15 AM (#49932)

As in "had obviously impaired judgement, but was still lively enough to try to put her hand down my pants, nibble my ear without causing damage, or (in one case) get extremely pissed off when it became obvious I wasn't going to have sex with her (she apologized later, and thanked me). It doesn't take a neuropathologist to tell the difference between a person at normal capacity and a person whose psychological defenses and mediation are missing, but it takes a douche to ignore that information.

A douche? Or a guy so desperate to get laid that he convinces himself that a woman he likes and who likes him wants to have sex with him when she says and acts like she wants to have sex with him?

Remember, this woman said of her friend, "let's just say that I am not attracted to him at all" ... which sounds to me as though she considers him physically repulsive. The odds are this guy hasn't gotten any nookie in a looong time, if ever. It's easy to reject an attractive woman who wants to get laid if you know that there will be other opportunities with other women.

For that matter, I remember a couple of male engineering majors from my college days who may have had Asperger's syndrome, and who probably couldn't tell the difference between a person at normal capacity and a person whose psychological defenses and mediation are missing. I could picture one of them as this "good-guy friend" ...

As I said, she doesn't seem to be upset that she got wasted and had sex -- that's an acceptable outcome for her. She seems upset that she got wasted and had sex with him .

As someone noted earlier, if she'd awakened nude, without memories, in the bed of a guy she found attractive, she wouldn't be wondering how to handle the situation ... she'd be trying to set up a repeat performance.


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CasualNotice
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 03:01 PM (#49946)
In Response to Murgatroyd (#49932):

By your reasoning, the practice of Shanghai-ing was perfectly resonable, because, while the sailors had no intention of working on the ships to which they were shanghaied, they were sailors after all.

One can even extend your reasoning to make slavery okay, since those people would have to work, anyway.


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Murgatroyd
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 08:05 PM (#49949)

Wow. Just wow.

I don't suppose you'd care to respond to what I really wrote, would you?

I'll restate it for you:

It doesn't take a neuropathologist to tell the difference between a person at normal capacity and a person whose psychological defenses and mediation are missing, but it takes a douche to ignore that information.

Some people can't tell, or can't tell very well, either because they're mindblind (e.g., Asperger's syndrome) or because they don't have experience with drunks and don't understand how people function (and malfunction) when they're intoxicated. That doesn't make them douchebags.

You may not have encountered such people, but trust me, they exist.

Also, I'm not excusing what happened ... although it sure would be nice to get his side of the story, don't you think? What I am saying is that from the words she wrote, it seems to me that she's upset that she might have lowered her standards to have sex with this particular "unattractive" guy.

I don't see how I could have been well enough for sex. On the other hand, I feel extremely guilty for thinking such a negative thing about a friend.

My interpretation: "I have no frackin' clue how I wound up in his bed, but I can see only two possibilities: either I'm a slut, or he took advantage of me. I don't want to believe I'm a slut, but if I accuse him of being a rapist and I misjudged him, then that would also make me a bad person. Oh, what should I do?"


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CasualNotice
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 09:30 PM (#49954)
In Response to Murgatroyd (#49949):

I don't see the two possibilities as being mutually exclusive. She may be a slut (at least when she's drunk, which would suggest that she has serious problems discerning between acceptable methods of displaying affection, especially while drunk--but I've already stated that she needs to see a therapist regarding her multiple problems), and he can be a douche.

Asperger's is not as common as you seem to think, and not being able to tell the difference between a normally functioning human being and a complete drunk would require the person to have been raised on a cave on Mars. The simple dichtomy between her normal behavior and "throwing herself at him" would have been a major tipoff for any person of reasonable brain function.

I'll reiterate: I never said the guy should go to jail. I said he is a douche. He took advantage of a person in diminished capacity. Whether or not she has a history of accepting such assignations under similar circumstances is immaterial. She may well be a slut. That doesn't make him not a jerk.


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TrulyCapricious
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 11:47 PM (#49957)
In Response to CasualNotice (#49919):

I can't believe some of you. Let me throw out a little hypothetical for those of you who are saying that this is okay:

Steve is drunk. His friends don't want to babysit him. They call their good friend Dan to come get him. Steve is straight. Dan is gay. Steve wakes up naked the next morning. His ass hurts. Dan tells him that he really wanted it last night.

Is this rape?

If an individual in unable to consent (inebriated, underaged, bound and gagged) or does not consent or STOPS consenting, IT IS RAPE. It is rape legally. It is rape morally.

Just because a woman "wants it" does NOT mean that she "wants it" from YOU.


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Caffeine
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 01:33 AM (#49959)

@TrulyCapricious: But if the woman in question comes on to you, what are you supposed to think (as a man)? Seriously, most men I know will simply think, "Hey, great, I'm getting tail!" and stop right after that. And there is little wrong with this.

(Your example is not really valid here, or at least as long as the lady asking the question is not usually a lesbian, which I think she might have mentioned if it was the case.)

******************

I don't think there is much wrong with any of the two. They are both human. They both probably made a mistake. It would be overreacting to make a big fuzz about it all. Really. Maybe she should not drink so much - if she does it on a regular basis - and maybe he shouldnÄt hump everything that holds still long enough (if this is what he is doing).

Apart from that, just out it in the "life experiences considered as a mistake" box, have some consolation chocolate and move on.


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Murgatroyd
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 02:08 AM (#49961)

Asperger's is not as common as you seem to think, and not being able to tell the difference between a normally functioning human being and a complete drunk would require the person to have been raised on a cave on Mars.

I took exception to your blanket statement. He might be a douche, but I can think of plausible scenarios in which he might not be a douche, too.

Asperger's -- or an equivalent level of mindblindness -- is not as uncommon as you seem to think. I'll bet you don't work in engineering or the hard sciences, do you? I personally know several people, all in technical fields, who might have taken her up on her offer, in good faith, because they would not have recognized how impaired she was. They have a hard time telling when people are kidding, and they're the sort of people who don't understand jokes that depend on unstated implications of remarks or situations.

We also don't know how easily her "good-guy friend" would have able to tell whether a woman whom he had not seen drinking was tipsy or drunk. I'd be willing to bet (based on intoxicated people I have known, including myself) that she told him, "Oh, I'm not all that drunk! My friends just think I shouldn't be driving."

BTW, I know a couple of adults -- one of them an astrophysicist -- who essentially were raised in a cave on Mars: religious teetotallers who went to a hard-core Christian university, who wouldn't have anything other than a vague theoretical understanding of how ethanol affects the human brain because they've never used it themselves and they don't associate much with people who do. OTOH, I can't see either of them jumping into bed at the invitation of a drunken friend ... but I can't see them jumping into bed with a stone cold sober friend, either.


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Murgatroyd
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 02:22 AM (#49962)

I can't believe this. Let me throw out a little hypothetical for those of you who are saying that this is rape:

Jane gets drunk, leaves the bar, and waits at a bus stop for a ride home. She gets on a bus and doesn't remember much after that. The next morning she wakes up on a park bench at the other end of town from where she lives. She realizes that she must have boarded the wrong bus.

She was taken somewhere against her will. Has she been KIDNAPPED?

Yes, TrulyCapricious, that's how silly you sound.

Caffiene nailed it: They are both human. They both made a mistake. Live and learn, and try not to repeat your mistakes.


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smparadox
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 08:40 AM (#49965)
I was going to make a smart-assed post exploring the ambiguity of date rape, but a lot of what I was going to say tongue-in-cheek made its way into various posts, on both sides of the debate. Which is a lot more interesting than what probably would have been a mediocre attempt at dark humor in the first place...
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TheOriginalJes
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 05:46 PM (#49969)
In Response to Murgatroyd (#49949):

-"You may not have encountered such people, but trust me, they exist."-

He's right. I'm an engineer, and it's a fairly widespread phenomenon amongst us.


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TheOriginalJes
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 05:47 PM (#49970)
In Response to TheOriginalJes (#49969):

Not Aspergers. Social ineptitude.


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TheOriginalJes
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 06:02 PM (#49971)
In Response to TrulyCapricious (#49957):

-"If an individual in unable to consent (inebriated, underaged, bound and gagged) or does not consent or STOPS consenting, IT IS RAPE. It is rape legally. It is rape morally."-

This arguement is predicated on her actually doing just that. She doesn't know if she did. She only describes her feelings about this person in an attempt to paint a picture of how the only sexual relationship she and he could have would be non-consentual.

We're dealing with her (in)ability to understand a particular situation, not a butt-load of hypotheticals.

BTW - she doesn't say that he's un-attractive. She just says that she isn't attracted to him. That could just be based on personality. Or, maybe she thought he was gay.

What we really need to weigh in is this: If they've known each other for years, why is this just happening now? Unless they've only just reached the legal drinking age and/or he just got his driver"s license, there may be a strong case for his argument.

A testimony as to her condition from her girlfriends would certainly go along way to clarifying the extent of the offense, assuming there really was one.


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JustAGuy
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 - 08:50 AM (#49982)

The situation as the original poster describes it is kind of gray. It depends on how drunk did she appear to be when she left the bar, how drunk did she appear when she came on to him and/or got to his apartment (we don't know, since she didn't tell us, and might not remember), and what's her modus operandi (lots of drunken one-night stands, from the sound of it).
The guy might be anywhere on the line between predator (highly unlikely) and white knight (nearly impossible). My guess he is neither, but that's still a lot of space. That's why I'm against the idea of pressing charges.

To the original poster - go talk to someone professional. I believe you need to talk to someone about your behavior in general, and about this specific incident. If you feel bad about it, you need to talk to someone, regardless of the legal status of it.
You also need to talk about (drunken) one-night stands in general, and if it is a good idea for you.

And this is a question for all the posters saying the guy should have known - I've never been hungover, walked unsteadily on my feet (after drinking) exactly once, and I'm usually the drunker guy among my friends.
I'm also over 25, so I'm not some kind of first-year college undergrad who hasn't started drinking yet.
I just don't drink.

What are the signs for "too drunk"? Some kind of checklist I can mentally go over, to see if a girl is too drunk.
Seriously, where is the line between passed out and sober? I don't know, since I've never crossed it. What are the signs the good guy-friend might have missed?


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DanialArin
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Friday, November 06, 2009 - 02:08 AM (#49987)
In Response to JustAGuy (#49982):

Apologies for the long post, but I ended up having a lot to say. Please bear with me.

Regarding those who've said, "It's rape," in some states they are correct. Intoxication past a certain point is considered a loss of competency when it comes to consent, in the same way being under a certain age is. The exact threshold and terms of decision vary by state, for those which have such a law. The primary purpose is so that someone who gets boozed or drugged into not resisting has recourse against the person who altered their mental state and/or took advantage of their altered mental state.

(It gets kind of dodgy if someone who is drunk or stoned - or underage - forces themselves on someone else; you'd probably have to charge both of them.)

Regarding the original poster, she is *not* obligated to file charges, if she doesn't want to. She can choose to "deal with it in-house". Or she can decide she's angry enough to go toe-to-toe with a potentially vicious defense attorney (as they are reputed to be in rape cases), and file charges. Or she can walk away from the matter entirely.

I will say, that I've seen people do and say all sorts of stuff they never would sober, once sufficiently plastered. Like the roommate I had in grad school who got thoroughly trashed one night at our suitemates' party, and after throwing up in his own bed, insisted I wouldn't mind him using mine instead. (You better believe I objected!) Had my other suitemates not actively taken care of the him, he was bigger and stronger than I was, and I was strongly considering calling an ambulance.

@Murgatroyd:

If your Jane had tried to charge the bus driver with kidnapping, she'd have been laughed out of court. However, when she didn't disembark at the end of the bus route, the driver would have called the police, and she'd have woken up in the drunk tank of the local lock-up, rather than on a park bench. Also, public transportation tends to be somewhat "automated", meaning that the driver is only responsible for responding to passengers' actions, not their inactions, since they cannot be expected to know the intentions of any given passenger.

@CasualNotice amp; Murgatroyd:

I know some people who are just as deadpan when they're being sarcastic or are messing around as when they're serious, or are just as flamboyant (and in the same way) when they're serious as when they're joking. Without the usual "I'm just messin' around" or equivalent, I often can't tell the difference. (Fortunately for me, my reaction times suck, so they usually get the "just kidding" in before I actually react or respond.)

Some of these same people can be thoroughly wasted and I wouldn't be sure, barring the smell of booze on their breath or certain physical differences in their expression, or the fact that their sense of "personal space" is reduced from two feet to two inches.

I unfortunately also know someone who has a reputation for getting plastered for the purpose of being able to cry rape in the morning.

Regarding the original poster, the way it's worded does leave a lot to the imagination, including the complete nature of the person's regrets, beyond the assertion that she doesn't quite believe what he told her (both that she pushed him to have sex, and that they actually had it), and that she doesn't want to be thinking badly of him the way she is. However, if she was as falling-down as her friends told her she was, it should have been obvious to the guy that her head wasn't on straight. And if this happened in a state when drunkenness is equivalent to non-competency, he should have known to keep the pants on based on *that* factor alone.

@Zonker:

When it comes to "sex crimes", these days it seems more like innocent until proven guilty. Having been acquitted, you should have been able to push for the relevant disciplinary leave records to be expunged, or at least sealed. Anyone who did see them should have found them marked up in such a way that they'd get smacked in the f...

Read the rest of this comment...

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TrulyCapricious
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 04:43 PM (#50039)

Murgatroyd - If you really believe that riding a bus can be properly equated to having another person INSIDE YOU when you DO NOT WANT THAT PERSON INSIDE YOU then I'll pray for you.

TheOriginalJes - By virtue of being too drunk to remember the events, she was unable to consent. It doesn't matter what she does at that point. HE has an obligation to do the right thing or to at least to -not- do the WRONG thing.

Moreover, she isn't even the one who put herself in the situation. She was out with female friends when she made the decision to drink too much. She was not out with him. She was put into that situation after she had already made the decision to get drunk. Sure, drinking too much is stupid. But that doesn't excuse his decision to RAPE her. And since he knew she was too drunk to drive (he was called to come get her, after all) then he knew she could not consent.

Additionally, asking why this hasn't happened before is just misdirection on your part. Every rapist has to commit their first rape once. That's a given.


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TheOriginalJes
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 04:41 PM (#50052)
In Response to TrulyCapricious (#50039):

-"TheOriginalJes - By virtue of being too drunk to remember the events, she was unable to consent. It doesn't matter what she does at that point. HE has an obligation to do the right thing or to at least to -not- do the WRONG thing."-

By that logic, if a man gets drunk and has sex; the woman is obligated to either ensure that she will not become pregnant as a result, or waive all rights to sue for child support should a child result. She would also have to assume full responsibility for all damages resulting from STDs given or received.

If I'm not allowed, as a man, to obligate another person to be responsible for my choices and their consequences, natural or man-made, "by virtue of being too drunk to remember the events"; then I don't see why anyone else should.


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TheOriginalJes
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 04:57 PM (#50054)
In Response to TrulyCapricious (#50039):

-"Additionally, asking why this hasn't happened before is just misdirection on your part. Every rapist has to commit their first rape once. That's a given."-

Now your just making him out to be a predator, as opposed to some stupid kid. If she woke up and was pleased with the results of her evening, the exact same course of events wouldn't be considered rape, even in the eyes of the law.

How would you like to have your very freedom determined by someone else's capriciousness?


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Murgatroyd
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 05:12 PM (#50055)

Murgatroyd - If you really believe that riding a bus can be properly equated to having another person INSIDE YOU when you DO NOT WANT THAT PERSON INSIDE YOU then I'll pray for you.

TrulyCapricious - If you are so obtuse that you couldn't tell I was ridiculing your position with an analogous claim that I considered absurd, then I'll pray that you aren't a registered voter.

You wrote:

Steve is drunk. His friends don't want to babysit him. They call their good friend Dan to come get him. Steve is straight. Dan is gay. Steve wakes up naked the next morning. His ass hurts. Dan tells him that he really wanted it last night.

Is this rape?

If an individual in unable to consent (inebriated, underaged, bound and gagged) or does not consent or STOPS consenting, IT IS RAPE. It is rape legally. It is rape morally.

OK, you said "individual" ... So let's try this on for size:

Steve is drunk. His friends don't want to babysit him. They call their friend Danielle to come get him. She takes him home. Steve wakes up naked the next morning next to Danielle, who is also naked. Danielle tells him that he really wanted it last night, and they did it three times. Steve is appalled, because Danielle is coyote-ugly, hasn't bathed in a week, and has a tattoo on her butt that says "Property of Hell's Angels" ... He would never have done her had he been even the least bit sober.

Is this rape?

If it isn't, then please explain your logic.

If it is, then please explain what the legal consequences should be.


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Murgatroyd
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 05:56 PM (#50056)

Murgatroyd - If you really believe that riding a bus can be properly equated to having another person INSIDE YOU when you DO NOT WANT THAT PERSON INSIDE YOU then I'll pray for you.

Oh, and one more thing, TrulyCapricious -- you're pulling a fast one here. You aren't just claiming it was rape, you're saying it was forcible rape.

According to the Original Poster, to the best of her knowledge:

... I was all over him and wanted sex really bad.

If this is true, it wasn't a case of "having another person INSIDE YOU when you DO NOT WANT THAT PERSON INSIDE YOU" -- it was a case of wanting and having another person inside you and then deciding the next day that you didn't want that person inside you after all:

I have had one-night stands, but let's just say that I am not attracted to him at all.

Note the tense of the verb.

The lesson of this encounter: Her friend should have videotaped her telling the camera "I am not impaired, and I want to screw his brains out!" and then he should have posted the video to his blog.


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Zonker
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Re: With Friends Like These... (Score: 1)
posted Monday, November 16, 2009 - 01:04 AM (#50091)
In Response to DanialArin (#49987):

DanialArin:

The problem is that the University I worked at has what's called 'LTE' contracts. They never have to give a written justification for why the contract wasn't renewed from year to year, and there is NO legal recourse permitted.

It's just "Contract not renewed."

The damage done to my hireability was that I'd been to court on a rape charge posted by a student. The fact that the charge was dismissed doesn't help when, in the interview process, they look at the resume and never give you a call because of "Well, you know what HE did...it would make everyone very uncomfortable if he were here, even if he is well qualified for the job..."

My general opinion of the original poster is this:

"You went out. You got drunk. You're responsible for what happened. You were an idiot, chalk this up to a life lesson, and talk to someone about your alcohol issues. You take this out on the guy with a rape charge, I hope he sues you for every cent you own and half of your lifetime earnings."


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