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POLL RESULTS: Saluting the Flag: (23 comments)

POLL: Saluting the Flag

Friday, November 27, 2009 - 12:00 AM

A reader writes... Q: Does the three-dates-before-sex rule before apply to a soldier shipping off to Iraq? Or should I bend the rules as my patriotic duty?

POLL: Is it patriotic to sleep with a solider before he or she deploys?
 
55% (847) Yes!
 
44% (692) No!
1539 people have voted in this poll. (This poll is not active.)
Gruhl
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Friday, November 27, 2009 - 12:59 AM (#50232)

Patriotic or not depends entirely upon your point of view. However, patriotism is about making sacrifices for your country, and by that definition of patriotism, patriotic sex is a bit silly, isn't it?

My point of view is, as I am not an american, is a bit simpler:
Are you ready to have sex with him (provided of course that he is willing)? If the answer is yes, then have sex, if no, then don't. Rules about three dates before sex and such... Well, they might be good for people who lack the selfknowledge to know if they are ready or not, but if you are sure about what you want, and aware of the consequences for you and those you care about, then you don't need arbitrary rules to tell you how you should feel.


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HandEFood
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Friday, November 27, 2009 - 01:36 AM (#50235)
In Response to Gruhl (#50232):

Which arbitrary, made-up rule to follow...? I say, if you're not going to see him for a long time, take your chances and have some fun. This is exceptional circumstances and petty social rules really don't apply.


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DanialArin
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Friday, November 27, 2009 - 02:39 AM (#50237)

If you don't understand the purpose of the "three-dates-before" rule, then hunt down the lyrics to "Shipoopi" from The Music Man, and review the first verse.

The basic idea is that, if he's willing to take the time and go to the effort of three dates with you before getting anything for it, then there's a chance he'll continue to put in the time and energy (and money) for you going forward. Which in turn makes him worth your time and effort, and physical intimacy, as a possible keeper.

So, if you're planning on having a long-term intimate relationship with him, involving waiting for him to get back and not seeing anyone else in the meantime, then maybe it's worth making him wait... maybe. If you want him to actually come back to you when he comes back, you may instead want to, um, "give him something to remember you by". (Especially if you won't have time for three dates before he goes. On the other hand, if he's not shipping out for at least three days, and you value the "three-dates-before" rule that highly, you could, um, "rush" things so as to get in the "three dates" before he ships out.)

If you're seeing strictly on a short-term basis, knowing that you're going to move on as soon as he ships out, and you won't be waiting anxiously for his letters, praying daily for his safe return to fill your empty arms, etc., etc., then go ahead and have as much fun with him as you can before he leaves, then waive Goodbye and Good Luck as he boards the plane, and then move on.


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Murgatroyd
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Friday, November 27, 2009 - 03:56 AM (#50238)

What they said.

Ask yourself these questions:

* If I'd already had two dates with him, would I sleep with him on the next date?

* What are your expectations for the two of you after he comes back home (assuming he does come back home)?

* Why do you think so little of yourself and your own judgment that you're willing to let a stupid, arbitrary rule made by someone you've never met control your life?


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Murgatroyd
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Friday, November 27, 2009 - 04:07 AM (#50240)

(Oops. That first question should have been phrased in second person rather than first person. Whether I sleep with him -- highly unlikely! -- is not the issue here. Would you sleep with him?)


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D_Armand
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Friday, November 27, 2009 - 04:13 AM (#50241)

Wow. There's a three dates before sex rule?

Honestly, I would say that sex requires a deep and intimate relationship, but I know that I'm going to be the outlier on this chart. It's all about what you're ready to do, I guess. Him being a soldier only changes what you should expect from the relationship.

Are you trying to get something long term out of it, even though he'll be overseas and your communication will be limited? I would say it depends in this case on what he's putting into these dates to tell you how serious he is. In all likelihood, most guys wouldn't pick right before deployment to find a soulmate, but the rule is proven by the exception.

Or is he just very attractive and you want to sleep with him without social stigma? Do what you feel is right, and don't let anyone else's opinions stop you.

The most important thing, in my opinion, is that both of you know what you're looking for out of this. Your goals need to be the same for you to have sex, whether it's a simple case of mutual need, or a desire for a deeper relationship sealed with physical intimacy.


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Caffeine
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Friday, November 27, 2009 - 09:24 AM (#50242)

The "3 dates before sex" rule is stupid anyway. Really. I mean, I am not American, so probably I don't understand that bit of culture probably, but... it's still stupid. I always thought doing the nasty was a question of whether you wanted to do it (or, in this case: him/her) or not.

Same with "patriotic sex". If the guy really needs it, he can still go to a professional. I mean, if he didn't want to die as a virgin or something. If you want to sleep with him, do it. If you don't, don't.

(My man is absolutely devastated at my writing this. "You're ruining his chances at hot, "maybe we'll never meet again in this life" sex!" Well, maybe he's right...)


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bknabe
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Friday, November 27, 2009 - 09:38 AM (#50243)
In Response to D_Armand (#50241):

I want to weigh in with D_Armand on the deep and intimate relationship being important. If you think you want more than a night of sex from the guy, and he might want the same thing from you, write him weekly (or more) while he's gone. If he's pressuring you - if he's using the "I'm shipping out" card at all to get sex - then he just wants sex, so don't break your rule.


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NunyaBidness
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Friday, November 27, 2009 - 11:22 AM (#50245)

I shipped out alone--only person from my unit, and had to handle all administrative issues until I reached the stateside departure point. That was pretty lonely.

When with a unit, there's lots of hurry up and wait, sit around, do nothing, get frustrated.

There's a slim but real chance he's not coming back.

There's a 100% chance he's not going to be back in months, and not have any contact in that time (unless he's very, very, lucky).

It's now illegal for service members to hire prostitutes. Dishonorable Discharge offense.

Even pr0n and booze are officially prohibited, and court martial offenses, so extreme discretion is needed, even if one can find privacy to do anything about it (We half-jokingly called the end stall the Spank Tank).

If he's clean, if you like him, you have no duty to get him laid, but it will be appreciated more than anything in the world for the next year.


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CaptainSmokeblower
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Friday, November 27, 2009 - 11:44 AM (#50246)

Times sure have improved. I am so old the rule used to be three dates before a kiss!
The poll question isn't whether you should or should not sleep with a soldier, but whether or not it's patriotic. If the act supports/helps your country then it can be considered patriotic. If it improves the morale of the soldier for more than a day then there's the slimmest of chances it supports your country. If you want to be patriotic volunteer at the USO or make and send care packages for your soldiers. Write a thank you letter to a unit overseas. (Of course telling the soldier you will send care packages rather than having sex with him won't help his morale at the moment!)


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zmortis
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Friday, November 27, 2009 - 04:56 PM (#50248)

It is patriotic for a soldier to serve his country without needing to use the eventually of his shipping out overseas to a combat zone as a way to score some sex from a woman. That is a sleazy ploy used by sleazy guys to bag stupid or slutty girls for decades. It is not patriotic to buy a line of bull from a soldier looking to get some quick action in your pants.

On the flip side if you are married to the soldier, or in a serious committed relationship with them then I think it is perfectly acceptable to physically express your commitment to each other. It still is not an act of patriotism.

Now if you are admittlely a slut who is ok with having sex with a virtual stranger, then acknowledge to yourself your slut tendancies and let the good times roll. Bang fifty soldiers if you want, it won't bother me any, and I'm sure they will appreciate the willing kindness on your part.

If you are not in a committed relationship, or a self admitted slut, then then the only thing that remains must be that you are stupid. I hope this helps you wise up some.


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DanialArin
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Friday, November 27, 2009 - 09:09 PM (#50250)

@Zmortis:
That's cold. It may or may not be true, but it's still cold.

@CaptainSmokeblower:
Indeed. Refer again to lyrics for "Shipoopi".

@NunyaBidness:
Even in places where it's legal? Wow, they've gotten really puritanical. Time was pin-ups were standard fare wherever individual soldiers or sailors crashed with any frequency.

@Caffeine & D_Armand:
There are a number of "rules" and formulas for dating behavior. They're not rules so much as guidelines, though many treat them like rules because they're called that. (Probably because someone's more likely to buy a book of "rules" than of "guidelines".)

The guidelines define a set of behaviors, which if followed, will theoretically let a girl / woman determine if the guy she's eying is a "keeper". In practice, their mileage will vary based on whether the guy in question also knows the rules and how he chooses to apply such knowledge. But the timings and delays they lay out for certain things will give a girl a little more time to spot the flaws and the jerks before she does something with him that he makes her regret.

By contrast, a guy can use the definitions supplied by the rules to determine if a girl is "easy" or "work". And a girl he finds "easy", so will the guy she cheats on him with or leaves him for.

@Original Poster:
What do you want from your time with this guy? What does he want from his time with you? How muchy time do you have, (a) before he leaves, and (b) available to see him in that limited timeframe? Do you plan to be waiting for him to come back? Do you expect that when/if he comes back, he'll be interested in coming back to you? (This last is a question of what you believe his intentions to be, not a question of your worth.)

The "rules" only apply if you're either (a) looking at him as a possible keeper, or (b) concerned about your "reputation" among his, or your, friends.

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Murgatroyd
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 01:31 AM (#50251)

Wouldn't it be delightful if Original Poster agonized over the question, finally decided to elevate this soldier's morale, offered him her body as a patriotic send-off ... and he turned her down? ;^)


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Caffeine
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 04:20 AM (#50254)

@zmortis: That's - uhm, how do I put it politely? - one of the most old-fashioned and probably bigot posts I've read in a long time. Why should having sex - even with many men or with men she has only known for a short period of time - turn a woman into a slut? And would the same be true for a guy?

As long as both know what they are doing and have fun, there is nothing wrong about having sex. Of course everyone should take appropriate actions so as not to wind up pregnant or with an STD, but other than that, there is no problem having sex. Unless, of course, your religious or philosopic view on the world tells you not to.

Gods, I thought we had finally left the "dark ages"...


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D_Armand
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 07:05 AM (#50256)
In Response to DanialArin (#50250):

I do understand social stigmas, and the way our society is quite free with handing them out to women for the same things that they laud men for. It's the unfortunate truth of our gender biased society.

However, I would definitely say that the guidelines defining her status was clearly covered by the mention of the importance of the intent involved in the relationship. If she's after quick sex, then she's not looking to be a keeper, she's looking to fool around. If she's looking for the long term commitment, as I said prior, most guys wouldn't be looking for that that quickly right before deployment.

These "rules" are social constructs that only affect those who choose to live by their standards. You have to live by the standards that you and your partner are both comfortable with, whatever those standards may be. If she's looking for a deep, meaningful relationship, and the two of them spend six hours on date number two, walking along some beach after a fancy dinner discussing long-term plans (and she's still attracted to him and doesn't assume he's gay) then it may be a situation where she would be comfortable breaking the rules, if it wouldn't harm what they had. It's all a matter of personal judgment.

I mean, I am waiting for marriage, for instance. There's one girl who I dearly love who is no longer a virgin, whom I know had sex that really was "pre-dating", who if she was interested in me as more than a friend, I would marry in a heartbeat (meaning 6-9 months). It's all about the guy, the girl, the circumstances, and whether you truly think that the person is more important than the rules. Follow your heart, not your pants, oh mysterious ... erm, don't know what to call the email submitter... and it should tell you when it's right.


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zmortis
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 09:00 AM (#50257)

@DanialArin I concur with your assessment that my comment was cold. It was also an outside perspective how my aged and cantankerous segment of society views such behavior. Maybe the original question asker can care less about society's opinion of what she is proposing. If such is the case, then why did she bother to ask the question in a public forum like courting disaster?

@Caffiene the definition of slut is one who has sex for the purpose of sex without emotional commitment. By default this applies to the majority of men so it is the assumed condition. It is redundant to call a man a slut. Women on the other hand tend to care about whether or why the term slut is applied. They create false rules like dating three times first doesn't make you a slut to make themselves feel better about their behavior.

I'm admittedly old school because I am likely older than most of the readers here. Having an old school opinion does not make me bigotted. She can blow the guy after the first five minutes of meeting him and I wouldn't care about it. I am just saying that if that is the kind of person she is, then she should be honest with herself at least. My advice is unless she is stupid, then to her own self be true.

If she is violating her own standards of behaivor because some guy is telling her it is patriotic to give it up to a soldier, then I am thinking she is pretty stupid.


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D_Armand
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 09:17 AM (#50258)
In Response to zmortis (#50257):

I would argue strongly against your general classification of men as "just has sex for the purpose of sex". It is an overgeneralization that leaves a large minority of us type-cast as assholes when we're not. This is a personalized decision, and grouping any number of people into a category like that, especially an unflattering one, is just bad policy.


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ThatJeff
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 10:05 AM (#50259)

Regarding soldiers and pinup girls: if I recall correctly, since the Islam religion frowns upon the viewing of the bare skin of women, the US Army has required that all servicemen follow their moral taboos while serving in Islamic countries.

Original poster: women have been giving men the "patriotic sendoff" ever since the first fight began. If you wanna, go for it, if not, don't. Of course, it'd be funny if he turned you down because he doesn't fly that way, but I imagine you two wouldn't be dating if that were the case.

And for whomever stated that it was abhorrent for a guy to use the "going off to war" excuse to get sex; oh please.....


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zmortis
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 10:07 AM (#50260)

I think it is easy enough to settle through an anonymous poll of men. If you ask a man who is not in a committed relationship with another person already whether they would have sex with a desireable mate without commitment on the first date, I think it is pretty likely that if they are honest with themselves the majority of men would answer yes. Of course that means the miniority of men who would not have sex on the first date in that situation are treated as if they behave the same as the majority.

The situation is different with men in commited relationships. Most value those relationships and are not willing to jeopardize them for promiscuous sex. Once again in those instances it is the miniority who are willing to cheat on their commitment who sully the rest with being potential scumbags.

Which gets down to the crux of why people (mostly guys mind you) will try to promote guilt free promiscuity. The odds are better that they will be able to take advantage of the situation if more women were less cautious about to whom they give their goodies.

However, it is women not men who assign a negative connotation to promiscuous sex. It goes against their need to keep a man in a committed relationship. The old saw applies of why buy the cow if there is plenty of free milk and steak to be had everywhere.

Thus we get to the use of the term slut as a derogatory term among female culture. It brands a woman as not acceptable in her behavior, and not to be trusted around men with commited relationships lest her loose morals lead them to cheat.

Then comes the application of false rules like dating three times before sex (or five times, or twenty times depending on a person's standards). This is not because after three times you have guaranteed a commitment, or really know who a person is and whether they will make a good mate. This is so a slut can put on the mask of respectablity and join in polite female society without stigma.

The old fashioned answer I have is if you acknowledge that you are a slut to yourself at least, then go forth and enjoy your sexual freedom. You don't need to fear the term being applied to you. Be yourself and enjoy what you can while it lasts.

If you are most certainly not a slut, then I recommend you not provide sex based on someone talking you into it with a sleazy guy move. Make sure there is a real commitment to a relationship first. Three dates does not make a commitment, nor does twenty dates. A commitment is based on an honest statement of such, and enough experience with the guy to know they are not pulling the wool over your eyes. For example very few guys are willing to become engaged to a girl just to get her in the sack for promiscuous sex.

I suspect that part of why I am taking heat here is that they feel I am revealing pages from the "single guys playbook". I am simply saying know thyself, and don't be afraid of being who you are. If you are not being who you truely are because of fear of a lable like "slut", then I feel you are being stupid. If you do something like have promiscuous sex when you normally would not because some guy is feeding you a cheezy line (a decades old one at that), then you are also being stupid.

Is this a little more clear then?


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ErikTheRed
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 02:59 PM (#50262)

I had wild, crazy sex on the first date with the last lady I went out with and we wound up happily married. Somebody stick a fork in this stupid "rule."

Sex and romance are not the same thing. They're both improved upon greatly when taken together, but they're independent entities and should always be treated as such. I know far too many people who have screwed up their relationships by not keeping this in mind. I have a few friends (both sexes) that avoid sex outside of relationships and are so ... ummm... "hormonally challenged" that when they do go on a date with someone with potential they can't even think straight and wind up making asses of themselves.

Anyway, back to the original question: screw the guy silly if it makes you happy, but not out of any sense of obligation to anything other than yourself.


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NunyaBidness
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 10:50 PM (#50265)

I also had insane sex within hours of meeting and am still married to her 20 years later. The sex is still amazing, too.

@Daniel: There is no "legal" prostitution from the DoD point of view, because of the sex slave trade. Rather than try to determine which countries or locales are legit, it's just all prohibited.

In the AOR, pinups of women (or men) who are legally clothed are legal, but only in private sleeping quarters. Unclothed is not due to cultural sensitivities. Some NCOs and junior officers are lucky enough to only have 1 or 2 roommates in their tent/hooch/room. Most enlisted are 4-8 per area.

And under those circumstances for 6-18 months, I refuse to condemn a guy who "just wants sex."


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jamesschardt
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From: Ft. Campbell, KY

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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Monday, November 30, 2009 - 01:58 PM (#50291)

Full disclosure: I am active duty US Army with 17 years in. I just got back from my second tour in Afghanistan and my 4th combat tour overall five days ago.

First, I feel a need to point out it is not your patriotic duty to have sex with a soldier. Any "soldier's send-off" should be regarded as the same thing as a no strings attached one night stand. If that's what you want to do, hey that's fine. However, do not do it as a show of commitment. You may see it as you giving yourself to him, but guys don't generally think of sex as giving themselves to the girl. As he probably will not be actively courting you for a year or so you'd be giving him a freebie.

A year away is a long time. The context of your question leads me to believe that you are looking for a a relationship with him. My advice would be to abstain from sex for now, but stay in contact with him as best you can while he is over there. How well this can be achieved really depends on his job and the base he will be stationed at. Letters, email, and the occasional care package will do more to make your case to him than pre-deployment sex ever could. While he certainly would appreciate the sex, he probably won't have anything to remind him of it nine months in when the days start to drag and he's watching badly pirated movies (again).


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Lachesis
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Re: Saluting the Flag (Score: 1)
posted Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 09:56 AM (#50316)

sex = "duty"?

to quote a prior poster: "oh, please...."

and count me in the old fogey crowd that says "yes, actually, sleeping with guys at the drop of a hat (or pants) DOES mean you're a slut".

it's a time-tested come-on, that yields enough clueless women's compliance to keep it still in active use. wise up, dummy.


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