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POLL RESULTS: Threesome minus one?: (11 comments)

POLL: Threesome minus one?

Friday, November 16, 2012 - 12:00 AM

A reader writes...

Q.: I have been in a relationship with an amazing woman for almost two years now. Our relationship started off rocky due to circumstances surrounding our getting together. Now our relationship is very strong, and has survived many trials (long distance, break taking).

In the last year my girlfriend has become interested in women sexually. I suppose you could say that she has become bisexual. I find this incredibly exciting, and have encouraged it at every turn. We both share our sexual fantasies about the subject, and everything is fine, usually. She has even had her first lesbian experience in my presence, I was allowed to watch, but not do anything with the other girl, due to circumstance.

This sort of leads to the problem. Whenever we talk about a possible threesome with another girl, my girlfriend is adamant that I will not be allowed to actually have sex with the other girl. Everything up to that point would be fair game according to her, but not the final act. In her eyes going all the way with the other girl would be tantamount to cheating, and she can't understand why I would want to do that. I think this is sort of an unfair distinction. In a sense, I can understand it, I will be allowed to do most anything she is capable of doing with a second girl. Even so, it still bothers me, and whenever the issue comes up she becomes angry or upset very quickly. I think she is perpetuating a double standard of a sort, given that I have supported her and given her approval to pursue sexual relationships with any women she likes, regardless of my presence (though I of course want to be included). Is she being fair or am I making too much of this?

POLL: What should he do?
 
24% (286) Play it cool. She'll warm up to the idea eventually.
 
59% (703) Be firm. No threesome unless everybody can participate.
 
15% (187) Break up. She's not really into you.
1176 people have voted in this poll. (This poll is not active.)
tweell
Lover

Posts: 8

Registered:
Mar 2012
Re: Threesome minus one? (Score: 0)
posted Friday, November 16, 2012 - 01:06 AM (#62383)

You have no leg to stand on, in my opinion. You have encouraged her 'straying' with other women and admit that it stimulates you. She hasn't made any suggestions of that kind to you, and obviously finds them uncomfortable. Also, a strict reciprocal would be you having fun with another man, not another woman.

Sorry, no having your cake and eating it too.


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Sanityfaerie
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Posts: 17

Registered:
Jan 2011
Re: Threesome minus one? (Score: 0)
posted Friday, November 16, 2012 - 01:30 AM (#62384)
In Response to tweell (#62383):

The fact is, it's not the same, from a practical or evolutionary standpoint. Genital-to-genital sex can produce children (even with contraception), and we're wired to acknowledge that at a fairly primal level in a number of ways. If you had actual sex with another woman, she'd feel like you were straying. I suspect at some level, you might feel like you were straying. She doesn't want you sharing *that* with another woman, and that's fair - you aren't putting anything even nearly as risky on the table (practical or emotional) by letting her do things with other women. Now, if she wanted to have "threesomes" where you weren't allowed to give or receive oral, or handjobs, or play with the other woman's breasts or whatever, that's a different story, but from what you've said, that's not what's going on. Left unvoted for disagreement with all available options.


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CaptainSmokeblower
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Posts: 58

Registered:
Nov 2009
Re: Threesome minus one? (Score: 0)
posted Friday, November 16, 2012 - 11:02 AM (#62388)

Ooh, the genie offered you one wish, you took it without realizing there's a problem with getting what you think you want. You equated your girlfriend in a threesome to YOU having a threesome. You got what you asked for, but not what you wanted and now you want to put the genie back in the bottle. Sorry Charlie, you're not screwed that way, Live with it or take your toy and go home little boy.

As for, "not having your cake and eating it too," I think he's probably allowed to eat the cake, just not stir the batter with his spatula and add his ingredient.

BTW, Welcome back Gulgar, great return.


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ErikTheRed
Lover

Posts: 25

Registered:
Jan 2008
Re: Threesome minus one? (Score: 0)
posted Friday, November 16, 2012 - 06:34 PM (#62391)

It's never going to be "fair" in this context, and this story is as old as the threesome - which is why 99% of the time you can tell that guys who won't shut up about threesomes have never actually had one. The only way this works is if you're both fully OK with swinging - which means you'd have to be OK with her being with other guys as well. Other than that, you can't have your pie while she eats it (works better than the cake metaphors ;-p ).

Also, w/b Brad Guigar! I thought you might have been swallowed up by ComicCon never to return!


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Amilianna
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Posts: 2

Registered:
Oct 2002
Re: Threesome minus one? (Score: 0)
posted Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 06:17 PM (#62394)

Obviously this is something that you didn't discuss fully when you agreed to "support" your girlfriend's explorations.

It is apparent that you equate her activities with the activities that you would like to participate in. Whether or not that is accurate - as the other commenters feel is the issue - is really not relevant. You *feel* that it is. That means that it is.

Now, does this mean that you get to strong-arm your girlfriend into letting you boink her new toy? No. But it does mean you guys need to have a serious conversation. And it means No more threesomes until you can come to an agreement that everyone is alright with. Because if you feel that what she is doing is more than what she's allowing you to do - emotionally or physically - then you are going to feel like it is not fair and it is going to lead to hurt feelings and built up resentment.

Perhaps you can just explain to her that you feel this way and you guys might be able to come to some kind of compromise on her allowing you some more freedom - either with specific individuals or as a general rule. Or perhaps you will need to limit her freedom so that you can feel that the scales are balanced and fair and she will understand and agree that that is fair. But no matter what you decide on, talking it out has to be the first step and you both have to feel comfortable with the rules that you end up with.

And try not to come at this with a feeling of "look at all I've done for you so far" because all that that is going to do is breed further resentment. Yes, it was great that you supported your girlfriend's sexual exploration and allowed her the freedom to find her sexual identity but if the only reason you did it was to cash in chips later it doesn't make you some kind of saint it just makes you a jerk. Forget about how nice you were to do those things for her and just start from square one - from where you are now and how you are feeling at this moment - and work with her to establish your relationship into something that makes you both happy.

Good luck!


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DanialArin
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Posts: 92

Registered:
Apr 2009
Re: Threesome minus one? (Score: 0)
posted Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 11:10 AM (#62395)

In a way, he's right, and in a way, he's got it all wrong.

On the Wiring/Plumbing/Reproductive side of things, there's a difference between M/F and F/F or M/M. What she seems to be favoring is based on this premise: there's one primary M/F coupling, and the second F is icing rather than cake. There are a few possible routes to this mindset, including but not limited to (1) a distinction in her mind between what she does with another F and what she does with him, or (2) she's still primarily hetero, and her F/F time is "play" while her M/F time with him is "real". If he were to propose a threesome with a second M instead of a second F, would she expect to be receiving the second M's primary M/F endgame, or just his?

On the Connection/Completion side of things, there's no difference between M/F and F/F or M/M. From that perspective, what she's limiting things to *is* unfair to him, in that she becomes a pivot point between the two of them, and they're not allowed to close the triangle. If he were interested in M/M the way she's interested in F/F, there might be a case for a foursome, rather than threesome, where the loop closes between the second M and second F (who could already be a couple in their own right), but he hasn't expressed an interest in M/M.

To pick a different set of analogies, I think what we may be looking at is a sandwich of sorts, one where either (1) he's part of the filling, and she either sees herself as also part of the filling and the other F as bread; or (2) he's the entire filling, and she sees a difference between the top and bottom bun with condiments all belonging on one side; or (3) she's the entire filling, and both he and the other F are both bread. Even on a one-shot basis, the only one of these models that's really fair to him is the first one, but it only works that way if (a) he accepts the same model, (b) he accepts what she's getting from the other F is not the same thing she gets from him, and (c) they either share the "bread" evenly (which would leave the "bread" overworked and undersatisfied), or they get a second piece of "bread" (who can split the work with the first one, and who can then make up for what the "filling" leaves out).

It's also been my observation that when an established couple tries to bring in a given third for more than one-time spice, that something ends up unraveling. As often as not it's the original relationship that falls apart, rather than the connection to the third. I've even seen two establish couples that paired up shattering, with one of the crossovers bonding and the other two members left drifting separately.

As long as his connection to her has elements the second F doesn't get to have, she can feel confident that the second F isn't going to usurp her place with him. But if he treats the second F the same as her, that second F becomes a potential rival, and a potential usurper, and no amount of reassurance from any direction alleviates that risk.

They need to find a way to handle this that doesn't leave him feeling like he's holding her purse while she spends time chatting in the women's restroom, when he clearly wants in on the conversation. And I can see how she'd feel the "anything short of" would be enough, but they need to resolve their difference of opinion as to what he could do with the second F that's comparable to what she's doing. It also matters whether they have a particular second F in mind, and if so, how that person's perspectives fit into all of this...

Another question they should ask themselves and each other... What constitutes a threesome to them, rather than a sequence of twosomes grouped only by being part of a single session?


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tymothymichel
Lover

Posts: 1

Registered:
Nov 2012
Re: Threesome minus one? (Score: 0)
posted Monday, November 19, 2012 - 04:45 AM (#62397)
In Response to tweell (#62383):

My ex tried to play this same nonsense.If she is into women it's the same thing as being with another guy as she's getting turned on by it.If you aren't into guys than it's NOT THE SAME, and I had to point this out rather forcibly with my ex. She could leave me for a women she was interested in, the same would never be true of me with a guy, as I'm not like that. So if your gal pal wants women in the bedroom she needs to accept the same risks that you do, that you may end up interested in girl number 3. Either it's even across the board, or put it to bed so to speak. If it were I, I would start looking for a new one. That's what I did.


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NunyaBidness
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Posts: 83

Registered:
Apr 2008
Re: Threesome minus one? (Score: 0)
posted Monday, November 19, 2012 - 07:32 AM (#62398)

If she's getting off with another person, then you can get off with the other person. Anything else is a double standard, and you're aiding and abetting her in cheating on you. (Since you state you're not happy with the arrangement, and she is, it's unfair.)

Any claims that it would only be fair if it were another man, etc, are ridiculous. They're akin to the "Gays have the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex we all do."

She's getting off with the help of another woman. You should be able to as well. If all parties are not agreeable and satisfied, it's not fair.


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Aldren
Lover

Posts: 2

Registered:
May 2010
Re: Threesome minus one? (Score: 0)
posted Monday, November 19, 2012 - 11:08 AM (#62399)

It's certainly not fair. Unfortunately you made an assumption without sitting down and discussing EXACTLY what the ground rules would be. So now you get to sit down and make rules that either expand what she's willing to allow you, or takes away from what she's able to do already. Messy situation, and you're going to be hard pressed to keep your cool but that's the only way.

Seriously, she wants her cake but wants to throw your piece away. You may be able to come to an equitable solution that allows for some extra fun, or you may decide it's best for the relationship to cut out the extra fun and games. Of course, you'll then have to decide if you trust her not to go behind your back, and if you can't trust her then the relationship was on shaky grounds before the experimenting started.

Several years ago my wife was bi-curious and we spoke about it at length. After much consideration we concluded we are both far too possessive of the other to be comfortable sharing with somebody else. So for us the monogamous route remained the best decision.

Oh, and what point does your wife define as the final act? Are hand jobs allowed? How about blow jobs? Because seriously, if the other girl can't even do that then she needs to abstain from that with the girl as well. And no penetrating toys either since you could argue it's a substitution.


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Prokleti
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Posts: 1

Registered:
Nov 2012
Re: Threesome minus one? (Score: 0)
posted Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 04:00 PM (#62407)

It's a double standard, but one you agreed to. Since the three of you have opened the door to a polyamorous relationship of sorts, you should realize that not all polyamorous relationships are "tit-for-tat". Some are structured exactly as yours, others are swingers, and in some only one partner is allowed to play and does it away from the primary partner. There are plenty of other structures, but what they all have in common is consent and communication. You need to work on that communication part.

You are feeling left out, and you need to voice that of course. You two had a monogamous relationship until you renegotiated the terms to allow her (and only her) to play. You should respect those terms until such time as you renegotiate new ones or you are in fact cheating. Be aware that her reluctance to allow you to play likely comes from insecurity that you could be feeding into. Is she jealous when she thinks of you playing without her? Is she worried you'll like the other's body more than hers? Is she worried you'll leave or become insatiable? You need to have a very calm and understanding talk and find out. Tell her how you are feeling about the situation in a way that explains your desires and insecurities and not accusations of unfairness. Saying "I should play if you can" or "I think you're selfish" is NOT a good approach, it's accusing her and not communicating WHY you want to engage in sex with another woman. Keep your comments about your feelings and behavior and not hers--she'll share her feelings herself, believe me. More appropriate would be "I enjoy watching you play but I feel left out. I love sharing new experiences with you, and I want you to have everything you want, but I'm feeling marginalized."

If she doesn't know why you would ever want to play with another woman, I think she is being a little emotionally dishonest. But that's another discussion. If she's on the level about that then she likely feels that her sleeping with another woman is okay since you don't have the same equipment that a woman has and therefore sex with woman is the ONLY way she can get that stimulation. Your sleeping with another woman is different to her because another woman has the same naughty bits that she does, and so wanting another woman means you aren't satisfied with hers. So... she's feeling insecure. You need to work on that because it's going to affect your relationship more and more as time goes on. Don't expect to be able to sleep with other women at the end of all this though. She may never agree to it and you shouldn't try guilting her into anything or penalizing her for it. You just need to approach her honestly and openly, and be okay with what happens no matter what. If you can't handle her being with other women and not sharing, then you'll have to break up, come to a mutual agreement to do something else, or accept it and deal.

If you want a really good idea of how polyamorous relationships are structured and negotiated, you should get a few really good books on the subject:

"Opening Up: A Guide to Creating and Sustaining Open Relationships" by Tristan Taormino. Great overview with detailed checklists of things you need to talk about and descriptions of how different polyamorous relationships are structured. The history of polyamory chapters I don't think are that important to what you're wanting to know, but the meat of the book is nuts and bolts how things work and is helpful.

The Art and Etiquette of Polyamory by Francoise Simpere. This book is like talking to a friend who is in an open relationship. It's structured largely in Q/A style. Breezy read with some good info on real problems people have and deal with. How to deal with jealousy, how to keep family life working while "dating" etc.


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Murgatroyd
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Posts: 300

Registered:
Jan 2008
Re: Threesome minus one? (Score: 0)
posted Monday, November 26, 2012 - 05:34 AM (#62505)

I was allowed to watch, but not do anything with the other girl ...

Wait a minute ... Doesn't the other girl have a say in this? Your girlfriend seems to be setting herself up as Queen Bee. Is the other person just a sex toy who happens to be made out of meat? What if the second girl wants something more than what your girlfriend can provide?

Given the circumstances, if your girlfriend really loved you she should want you to have -- and give -- as much pleasure with the other woman as she has -- and gives -- with the other woman.

What would happen if the other woman took the initiative with you?


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